@Izumo: I mean standard ONS, not the shit that's played these days. You've already told me about what goes on on Onslaught servers, so I realise that the ONS that is played today is not how it used to be. Assume I mean standard ONS / standard VCTF unless I indicate otherwise.
@darkelf, yes. The idea of time limit volumes was that they could be set to the appropriate time for the map and thus the amount of grace given for other players was constant and not decided by players, who cannot be trusted not to simply wait until the last minute. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that Blazing Scorpions in particular will never have such restrictions.
And now here comes the good stuff.
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:You wouldnt need to run after all the glitchers or patch the flaws if you simply allowed it. Plus you wouldnt lose players every week due to sometimes really ridiculous bans. There are even a couple of major glitches in AS maps I know. Even on retail maps. Are they allowed? Yes. Do you care to fix them? No. So why only apply the glitching rules to AS? And again, Im asking you, where do you draw the line between a shortcut and a glitch? For example if everyone had to play Aztec race as it was intended, everyone would take forever at the last objective to get through the S shaped, narrow brushes near the end. But people simply jump over them. Now in your eyes, this must be glitching, but yet nobody has been banned for it nor has it been fixed.
I'm sorry, this is a
racing server. I act in accordance with that principle first and foremost. OLDZ was ditched because it wasn't race, it was camp in base for two rounds. Teamwork benders and single-round RACE were introduced to get rid of those problems. Glitching was removed because
glitching isn't racing. If you cut out the whole map via a simple to execute glitch, or if the gametype is only fun for you because you glitch to get advantage over those playing legitimately,
it's not for you. If you insist on allowing the players to define what they like, then call the gametype Glitch and at least it's an accurate description, but I've always worked under the assumption that racing means a race to the objective upon the track the mapper laid out and intended for you to play.
As for AS maps, glitches on AS maps
except stock maps are fixed. The reason the glitches on stock maps aren't fixed is because foreign Assault players playing standard maps expect the map to be that way and will defend it as if it is that way. Unless the glitch breaks the map in terms of being an utterly obvious choice, rather than an additional route, I don't see the problem. The glitches on Fallen City 1st and 2nd objs don't break the map, for example, and give scant advantage.
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:Its not about refusing to finish it, its about being so kind to wait for others to complete it. Now if you come with your stupid argument its race, ergo its competition... in Race theres not just a winner but also a 2nd, 3rd, 4th and so on. When ppl just finish the last obj on race, there will be just one winner and thats it. THIS is not race. People (including me) usually ask if they should finish when they reach the obj. I myself finish as long as nobody replied or if ppl want me to finish. But if people requesting "wait" why should it be forbidden?
When people stack on defense for AS, its simply not fun, mainly for the attackers, because the goal of AS is to do the objective (and not to farm defenders like some people think). If the defense is stacked, they cant do it. On the other hand, if people dont finish on race, that doesnt mean the rest of the players cant race anymore, they can still do the whole map without any limitation. And admins have extended the time because it has been asked for it. Simple.
Nice jab at me with the "farm defenders." Stationary Shield Gun is back, you missed that bus a long time ago, but it fits in very well with the rest of your argument that you propose a vision of Assault in which one team puts up shields and runs to the objective while the other team tries to kill them, instead of players actually having to clear an objective before they can take it. I understand that a lot of Assault maps have shit design (because of the low number of maps available, a lot of them are shit), but if I get accused of "farming defenders" when I'm reducing the resistance at the objective (again, on a properly designed map and not an attrition-fest), then I'm inclined to just sit here and laugh.
If server time is going to be used, the trial maps should be played competitively as all other maps are. If players really can't buck up, make a separate server for them to practice trial maps on. While you may have your own code for waiting, I've seen plenty of times when players will say "fin?", someone will reply in the affirmative, but unless the response is absolutely overwhelming the player will wait until the timer reaches 0. Meanwhile if anyone has so much as the gall to make a move to finish the last objective, they will either be ninja'd by the player who got there first or harassed and ostracised by the players who waited, thinking that they are entitled to stop everyone else from doing obj as long as they got there first. Both cases are utterly undesirable. If it comes to the point where I'm actually forced to join and finish maps because other players won't, I will - it's well within the ability of anyone with an attention span of more than five seconds.
If I stack defense on a map, the other players are still able to play just fine. Admittedly, they're going to be slowed down, but nobody is preventing them from playing. Consider that some people may consider refusal to finish a trial map extending their own "torture", which is just as bad as being farmed when you can't do the map.
The last time I saw an administrator time extension on a trial map, no players had asked them to, 3 players had asked them not to and they did it anyway. It simply is not for admins to extend time under any circumstances, regardless of whether the clientele who choose to talk request it or not. The allotted time is there, other people want to play other maps and might even not be joining because of the current map.
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:Then let me ask you. Do you want an empty server with perfectly designed and challenging maps? Or do you want a full server with alot of happy players (noobs or pros doesnt matter) and maps that have a few glitches? If you would pick the first option you would lie.
And why do you think racers play race and not Instagib, Tam or something which requires skill? Because they cant compete with skilled players. If they struggle with Blazing, let them struggle, why do you care? At least they play the map. "Skilled actual racers" are in the formula 1.
You criticised me because I think racers are, on the whole, unskilled, or "noobs" as you put it. I merely justified that criticism. Further discussion about the skill of racers is of no interest to me, so don't act as if anything I said was anything more than a justification.
I'm well aware of what will happen if racing were to be made good, with "good" defined as a challenging gametype with a high skillcap. The current playerbase would not be interested. Why do you think I gave up all attempts to figure out a way to do that?
BabyDontHurtMeNoMore wrote:And even if it was played by noobs, why do you care? You dont even play race. If people are happy, let them play and dont fucking ban them one after another. If youre trying to create a Race server with only skilled and honest players who dont glitch you might just wanna run a 32 slot server with only bots on it.
Besides, I would have paid for the moment when you joined the UTzone race server 8 years ago and told them they are all noobs. You would have been challenged by 50% of the players to a 1v1 and defeated with ease.
You weren't much to shout about yourself all those years back (or you'd never have flown under Cartoon's banner) but that may as well be so. It's complete conjecture though. Be mindful that when I say "racer" I refer to people who play race and ONLY race, so if you think I'd have waltzed into a server of people who play mixed gametypes and called them all noobs, you're tragically deluded. I lost interest in being any better than I am now in standard a long time ago, which is why I don't play anywhere else but LDG and why I will not improve beyond the meagre level of "skill" I maintain now in NW, so if you're attempting to irk me by pointing out that I suck now, you're... 4 years too late.
As for "I don't even play race", that's not strictly true; I merely don't play it lately. When Blazing Scorps was first released, I played it whenever it was up, grateful for a race map which actually held some depth and interest. Race may well bore the hell out of me, but I've not only the urge to make it actual racing and improve its flow (as I feel is my duty, since I was appointed administrator of an AS/Race server) but also to patch all the exploits out of it, regardless of what you and a vocal minority might think about what they do to the gameplay. Again, I ask you: Put up or shut up. If you feel that the mechanics of glitches are required to add depth to race, make some actual challenging maps where the same rules apply to all and it's clear what you're intended to do. I'm more than happy to see the gametype improved
without resorting to cheats, exploits and glitches. Otherwise, accept that I and others will patch maps according to how they were designed to make the gametype play as it was intended, not how it's been bastardized after years. Saying "you don't play race and we do, therefore everything we do and say is right" is, to be frank, irelevant drivel. At its core, this is about how much can be done to increase the depth and interest of race without causing weak players to leave the server. It's exactly the same distinction which is behind the phrase
"Actions, not words." Talk is cheap. Very few people will go very far in terms of actions to oppose a cause which they'll big up in words to be the end of the world. LDG is no different.
I don't expect to be able to change the nature of people - it's in human nature to use any advantage we can, regardless of whether doing so makes for level playing field, is the most interesing thing to do or any other factor. It's why some people choose to run aimbots. But while you cannot control someone else's mind, you can limit their actions, and this is exactly what patching glitches does. It doesn't matter how much you want to do something if you can't do it, and until some actual proof is shown to me that the LDG Apocalypse will be caused by preventing players from using exploits (in this, you are saying flat out that the gametype is
not worth playing unless you can exploit it), then I will continue on the current course.
I won't answer the last bit because it's yet another stupid insult. I've already given the reasons why I choose to work on race beforehand. You need to understand that trying to defend cheating because "muh fun, muh heroism, i got the objective and my name is in lights" is an insult to the gametype, because you're suggesting that people are only interested in the gametype when they can cheat. Given that there are maps which are not exploitable and are still played (a majority, actually) it's clear that this is only true for YOU - and if it is, you can just deal with it, as far as I care.